Episode 38: Democracy as a Ticker, Jamie Dimon’s F-Bomb, & US Perps

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Hello everyone. Hello internet. This is JR.

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>> This is Leon. Welcome to the

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>> Spiderverse. The the Spider Noir. Have you watched Spider Noir?

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>> No. Is it on Netflix?

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>> Uh, no. It’s on Amazon Prime. It’s got um that one weird looking dude. Uh he’s

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he’s good in movies. Nicholas uh Nicholas Cage, I think. Yeah.

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>> Okay, that’s fun. I know Amazon Prime has been producing a lot of bangers this

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year with like Invincible, the boys finale. So, I’m going to add that on my

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watch list. Actually,

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>> Invincible was pretty good. Uh, the in the middle, and I know this completely

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off topic, in the middle was was a little mushy. Season 3, not not a big

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fan of it, but at the end,

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>> season two

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>> was good. Yeah, season two and three I thought it was kind of mediocre, but

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season 1 I loved, and season 4 is just like so much like goodness to it. So,

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I’m I’m into it.

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>> Yeah. Well, I’m glad you got into it. All right, so for this episode, we’re

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kind of going to be all over the place. So, um, we want to talk about perpetuals

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are coming to the US thanks to the CFTC. And this is actually going to be a

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pretty big deal for Hyperlquid, uh, Coinbase, Koshi, possibly Poly Market if

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once they get their um once they’re able to finally do a lot of more business

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here because you can only do like sports trading and some politics, but not like

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as much as you can with Koshi. So, also compared to C going back to Koshi,

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they’re doing um the power index, the American Power Index. That’s pretty

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cool. We want to go over that. they um have their Bitcoin powered perpetuals

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now. So, that’s pretty cool. It kind of sounds like they’re taking the angle of

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hyperlquid. So, I want to see more into that today and maybe get into the app as

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well. And then for the last topic there, we want to talk about agents, trading

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crypto, trading anything with agents. There was a 12.3 million scam reported

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by the SEC this morning as of recording. So, it’s kind of a big deal. this guy um

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he defrauded you know investors 150 of them I think it’s a pretty big deal

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considering where the comp where the trajectory of the industry is moving

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like Robin Hood released agent MCP bay did the same thing you know we’re kind

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of on the same space at this point so I think it’s a pretty big deal and you

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know something I want to share my concerns about um but yeah without

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further ado if you like what if you like what you’re watching subscribe to the

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channel it cost you nothing helps us grow. We’ve reached almost 300

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subscribers in the last month. So, that’s amazing. Um, do you have any

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shout outs, Leon? Anything?

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>> No, no shout outs. Uh, like, subscribe. Subscribe mainly. Leave a comment.

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>> Cool. Thanks. All right, so let’s talk about Koshi then, I suppose. Or I guess

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the perpetuals. Oh, no. I’m sorry. I’m I’m such an idiot. I completely forgot

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about the Clarity Act.

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>> Yeah, let’s talk about that. And Mr. uh

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>> scourge of crypto that turned a turned to like it. Jamie Diamond.

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>> Yeah. So, I guess that’s where we’ll started. So, the other day I was on

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Twitter like as Termin as I am normally. Um there’s been some developments on on

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the Clarity Act. I mean, at this point, it’s like, dude, they already passed the

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Senate or or or not, it’s going to the Senate, but already passed the the House

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of Representatives.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think it came out of the Senate committee, too. So, it’s it’s

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working its way through the system.

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>> Let me see if I can find a video.

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>> Uh I think it’s uh how a bill works. Uh what’s the high school rock like? What’s

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the rock songs about how Congress works?

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>> Well, I wonder who that sad little scrap of paper is.

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>> Okay. So, I know schoolhouse rock.

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>> Yeah. I’m just we should we should make a Schoolhouse Rock AI video of uh the

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the uh crypto drama with this clarity act. That would be a very good meta. I’m

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going to play with that later.

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>> See if Corey can do something fun with that. If you’re watching this, Corey.

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All right. Um so I found the interview. This is with Jamie Diamond. This is with

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Bitcoin Magazine. Let me know if you cannot hear my audio.

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could be in anyone’s wallet and it goes w the fourth wallet. So the first one

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may be legitimate, second one may be a sex trafficker. So you know this it’s

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complicated and the government needs to do it thoughtfully. If they don’t do it

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thoughtfully it will cause it’ll be a huge problem.

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>> So are you happy with the way the clarity act is turning out?

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>> No because it it it allows them to effectively pay interest on deposits,

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stable coins or something like that without the protection that they should

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have and it doesn’t do anything for MLBSA. It has almost no legal

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protections. So, no, it’s the banks will not accept it that way.

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>> And the ABA, the small banks, the credit unions, not just the big guys. I’m not

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worried about stable coin, but if it happened, I’m telling you, I would have

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nothing to do with it and it would eventually blow up on its own. Okay? But

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that’s my personal thing, but I do understand the concern of all the other

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banks. So,

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>> well, the markup is coming. I mean, what are you going to do about it?

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>> It is. We’ll fight it. If we lose, we lose and we’ll live.

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>> Okay?

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>> But it will be fought. This will not be No, no one’s going to bow down to this

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guy, okay? with that company and he’s the only one and he’s spending hundreds

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of millions of dollars in Washington this thing.

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>> He said he’s he’s representing the whole

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>> full of [ __ ]

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>> Yeah.

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>> Watch that one.

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>> She was even surprised. That’s so funny.

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>> Yeah.

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>> Wow. Well, I mean this is turning into a big fight between the whole, you know,

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industry. You’re talking about blockchain and and and getting

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blockchain out.

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>> You’ve been doing that for a long time.

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>> Okay. Okay, I’m just going to end it there because they go at that point.

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>> It’s shocking. I you know, like I I I love that. But

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>> so does that mean they’re going to [ __ ] or something? Like what’s what’s the

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>> Yeah. So essentially the main character beats the crap out of the other guy and

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you you got to watch it. But uh

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>> you may want to look up what the show’s about Ryan. I love that. I was so thrown

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off when I saw it. I was like, you know, they [ __ ] right? Like is that what

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you’re going to do? Are you gonna get him?

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>> No, like he did. Yeah, it’s it’s a fun fun like jab thing. So,

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I still think it’s it’s interesting. It’s a funny meme. But I think overall

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Jamie Diamond I I understand what he’s saying about the protections and the

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safety of it all. But truthfully, man,

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>> the the big banks get away with so much fraud, so many problems. They then just

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pay a mediocre fine and nobody respects them. nobody likes them anymore. And I

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think the banks see the crypto stuff as something they need to adopt

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as like an infrastructure upgrade and they want to do it in their way and

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their flavor and anything that jeopardizes their financial system,

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their FX and all of that is is where they’re pushing back on. Honestly,

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I see what you’re saying and there’s all there’s a lot of memes on

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the internet how you compare crypto bros in the last maybe decade compared to

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like the last few years. people in the last decade they were like I mean I’m

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sure I’m sure Corey can pull it up or something for us but

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you know back then people would would be all about decentralization no governance

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and then now it’s like you know when is the next big company going to buy

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release the ETF or when is the next memecoin going to go boom so it’s like

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>> you cannot always have that same mindset you’d had in the last decade but also I

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mean the degeneracy about the meme coins recently. Like you there’s got to be a

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middle ground. Like I mean the last month we were covering a bunch of

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attacks in DeFi. And you know some of our prospective customers we were

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talking to they were like yeah I don’t know if I want to trust your product if

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you’re on DeFi because you know there’s almost no guarantee that once my money

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is lost I can get it back you know because there’s no insurance and nothing

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that can guarantee protection. I mean it was insane. It was like DeFi was dying

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last month for for a while and even earlier this month. Um,

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so I see Jamie Diamond’s point. That’s as far as it goes.

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>> To your point, like banks are also so shady, dude. Like who are going to get

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[ __ ] by over the most banks, hackers on crypto, people pick their poison. And

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I would take my chances with crypto either way. However, I am hopeful that

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there’s going to be some sort of framework for any crypto provider

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that is in favor of builders to be able to protect consumers as well. And I’m

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sure the technology is only going to get better, especially Mythos is coming out

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uh for everyone at some point. So, I don’t know how that will go, but I’m

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hoping that, you know, at least developers will be able to catch a lot

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of security bugs that can help mitigate DeFi attacks.

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>> Yeah, I I do think there needs to be some sort of monetary protection for

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>> deposits that are in stable coins, but also

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the reason banks have any sort of protections because it’s a government

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currency. Stable coins are not a government currency. They’re they’re

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backed by T bills. They’re backed by all of that. But like

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>> true.

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>> It’s a weird gray zone of like I don’t know if the government should provide

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protection for that. But yet at the same time, if a bank fails and all that money

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goes away, like normal consumers lose. Like there there’s got to be some sort

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of protection. But also, how do you do that in a safe

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way that’s not just, you know, government overreach and overregulation?

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>> I think our biggest [ __ ] up was just getting off the gold standard. Like the

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dollar is just worth as much as toilet paper is in theory. You know, we need to

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tokenize the dollar like have a government tokenized asset. That’s

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that’s what I’ve been wanting for the last since I got into crypto. I’m like

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maybe this will be the endgame, but I mean we’ll see.

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>> Yeah, but I think the the bad of the gold standard was the economic rigidity

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of it. Like you it prevented central banks from injecting money into the

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economy during recessions. So co if we had co and we had a gold standard like

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we would have been you know possibly crushed. And then uh

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like there there was also like the bad of

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like you know

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>> deflationary spirals like a shortage of gold could cause widespread deflation

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you know vulnerability to shocks like there was a lot of bad in the gold. Um

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but when you did decouple it from from it the go from the gold the only thing

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that’s supporting the US dollar now is the United States military. And I always

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say this is like the military is the value of of our dollar.

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>> Um

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>> you’re not wrong.

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>> It it is, you know, it’s just like a Roman Empire in the past. Like why did

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you know why is all their stuff worth something? It was like it’s because it’s

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the Roman Empire. The United States is the same way. It’s,

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you know, not good, not bad. I I think it’s just the the way. And I think we’re

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the most good out of any, you know, society that’s been around like in all

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of history. Like, you know, if you look back to the Mayans to to anybody else,

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the Romans, like the amount of bad things everyone did, you know, it it

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always was bad, but I think theirs was for conquering and ours is for, you

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know, trying to keep people snick safe for the most part.

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Well, I still think America is the best country on earth despite whatever Peter

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Theo might do moving to Argentina. Um, it’s pretty much Rome back in the day in

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my opinion. Not to, you know, I think it’s a very high testosterone

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conversation when you’re talking about the Roman Empire, but that’s besides my

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point. Um, but in order to express gratitude for America, I mean, whatever

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rep, let me let me say that again. You can cut that, Corey.

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Um, but you know, I still think this is the

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best country on earth. However, speaking of best country on earth, did you know

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that perpetuals are finally coming back to America or I don’t know if they were

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ever here?

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>> I Yeah, I don’t know if they were ever here. Um, I saw it like I I feel like

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it’s a positive. I there’s so many crypto tools out there that have just

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been limited to us for, you know, better part of five, six years. And I’m so glad

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that it’s it’s finally starting to come back. You don’t have to have a VPN. You

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don’t have to kind of finagle your way around.

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>> Okay. So, I think it all started this week when the CFTC approves the BTC per

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contract submitted by Koshi. It’s pretty cool how they’re an LLC.

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Like I wonder um well they probably have a parent company that’s a Delaware C or

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something and then they have the exchange that’s an LLC.

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>> So probably like Alphabet like Google’s an LLC. Yeah. In the end.

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>> Yeah. Probably should be sharing my screen as I’m talking about this. Um

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so I found this post and it’s from Salana Floor and it pretty much just

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says what I just read. Um, they made their their their submission. It’s

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pretty interesting. I think you mentioned, you know, before we went live

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that Brian Armstrong corrected this. They weren’t the first

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approved per in America. Is that right?

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>> I maybe they’re the first, but they’re not the only one is what Brian Armstrong

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was kind of trying to say.

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>> Okay. So, that’s

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>> Yeah, cuz I went and looked. Okay, that’s fine. I almost thought for

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a moment this was actually I was like, “Hey yo, this guy’s coming out here.”

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Um, will regulated PERPS be the next

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trillion dollar market? Absolutely. I mean, day trading, you have more success

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doing PERPS than trading stocks or memecoins. So, it could be worthwhile,

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you know, and people are comparing prediction markets with meme coins with

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ETFs or, you know, there’s a lot of ways to invest and to day trade. Obviously,

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investing will probably net you more than day trading, but I think PERS are

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going to be the next prediction markets here in America. Like, everyone’s going

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to be doing it. It has that stickiness to it where you’re like shorting or

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longing something. And if you use products like Phantom Wallet, they do

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have their pers there. One thing that’s really cool is it has this little

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onboarding system. You know, I could probably well it I don’t know if I’ll be

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able to share here right now, but because I have it as a as a as an

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extension, but my point is is you know, UIUX is so easy to make right now

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because of cloud apps like VIP coding. So, I think this is going to be like the

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next big thing aside from like the next big thing that comes in the financial

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market after per after um prediction markets.

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>> I could see this actually becoming the main thing. Like I I think prediction

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markets are going to have a reckoning at some point. Everyone’s saying how bad

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they are. People are, you know, defending it. And I think Khi is looking

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at the future of where things might go. And perpetuals are an actual like

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like an actual like like

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it’s it’s it’s a real thing that is is not just a bet, you

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know, like you can do this stuff. It it it’s a little bit like traditional

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futures, but traditional futures don’t ha um sorry, traditional futures have an

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end date. Perpetuals don’t have an end date. So,

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>> okay,

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>> that’s that’s how they end. So, you can hold a position in perpetuals

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indefinitely. And I think that

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is the closest to actual finance tools. Whereas prediction markets in a lot of

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ways are they’re not an actual prediction market.

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It’s not like uh Mark Cuban where you know when he bought got bought up by

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Yahoo he shorted and and called on the stock you know uh you know if he could

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do stuff like that

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>> when you’re saying when he did that that was like a proxy of a prediction market

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>> sort of like it is a proxy of prediction market but also you know if if he was

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you know if there was a prediction market for you know would Yahoo buy his

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company like he couldn’t do that because he had insider knowledge like the the

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whole thing about like prediction markets and the original pitch was there

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was supposed to be a hedge on stuff. So, like if you go book a vacation in, you

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know, uh, Miami, you go, “Hey, there’s going to be a hurricane.” You place

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money on it. So, when you when you do have a hurricane, you recoup your money.

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You know, like that was kind of the the pitch. And now it’s not really that.

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It’s turned into like, oh, is there going to be a war? And, you know, or,

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oh, hey, are we going to do this? Is this person, you know, going to going to

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do this or say that? It’s it’s really just gambling masked as as something.

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And I think there is real usages for the for the prediction markets, but I think

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they’re being marketed as like a make money and pay your rent, which is like

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very predatory.

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>> Can you repeat the last part about the rent one?

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>> Like Koshi is running ads that say, “Hey, make rent like bet on bet on

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prediction, you know, markets.”

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>> Okay. Okay. Yeah. I mean, fintech, fintech is the most highly regulated one

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besides um healthcare because you’re obviously dealing with people’s

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livelihoods. So, I can see them getting in trouble

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for that. But also, I mean, we’re in the new administration where everything is

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legal, so it’s probably

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>> anything while that happens. It’s all fair game. You know, if you have the

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deepest pockets, you’re it’s all fair game. Um, but in any case, I thought

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that was pretty cool. It’s still on weight. I’m I’m on the wait list, so

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we’ll see what happens. I thought it was something worth mentioning just because

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I love trading on prediction markets and sports betting on the Spurs. I’m hoping

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they win. We’re the game is going to be later on today as of us streaming it, so

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I’m hoping they win. Um, let us know in the comments who you think might win and

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why if you’re watching it if you’re watching this. Um,

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okay. So, while we’re still on Koshi, I wanted to talk about

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uh the American Power Index, which I thought it was fun how um Lana made a

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comment the way she wanted to position it. It was like pow like a like a comic

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book. Um

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>> really,

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>> can I find else?

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>> Yeah. Um it was just something fun that she tried to do, which I I respect the

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effort. Here it is. All right. So, this is it. Like, this

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happened a few days ago, like Wednesday, I think. Thursday.

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>> Yeah. Kapow. Kapow.

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>> Yeah. The Koshi Power Index or I I see the effort. Um, yeah. So, Koshi American

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Power index. So, what’s this about? It tracks the shifting balance of power

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between Democrats and Republicans backed by our data. That’s actually kind of

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interesting. I like that. Um I I know I said that the first time I

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looked at it, too. So, let’s see if Grock can break it down a little bit

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more. I mean, it just talks about it being

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launch. Kapow. Okay. Yeah. So, I guess we’re calling it Kapow still. It blends

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75% forward-looking market signal on future controls with 25% current office

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holder data on 50 50 plus D for Democrat and 50 plus R for Republican scale

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showing a sharp swing toward Republicans in May 2026 with the latest reading near

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plus 2.5R for Republican. This index offers a tradeable lens on policy

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uncertainty and political shifts, drawing interests for its potential to

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price power dynamics faster than polls while enabling hedging of election

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related risks. Honestly, this is probably the best thing I’ve seen yet.

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Like, like so dead ass about this. I really like this.

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You You’re not going to see this [ __ ] anywhere outside of America.

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Let’s see. So, um,

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>> go ahead.

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>> So, I hold on, let me look something up.

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>> While you’re doing that, some comments. We really turn democracy into a ticker

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symbol. Let’s [ __ ] do one minute markets on this. How long until senator

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gets caught front running their own legislation? Oh my god, that’s probably

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something I didn’t think about before, but like I can see politicians hedging

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on this. There’s a lot of insider trading already, which you know with

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stocks it it’s already going to get banned, I suppose, but I don’t know if

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that’s going to extend to everything in the markets. Um,

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>> but man,

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>> yeah. So, what I went to go look real quick on is like

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um how how they’re doing this.

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Um,

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>> okay. There’s a word um it’s called salance I

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believe I’m pronounced it right. It it’s like ambiguity.

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So um you know it’s it’s like let me look it up real quick cuz explaining the

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word is

22:32

>> that’s fine.

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>> Salience refers to the state of quality of being prominent, noticeable or

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standing out relative to its environment.

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I don’t have a financial background, but is that like a financial thing?

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>> Salience. No, it it’s a psychology neuroscience. Like the reason why

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>> um I know it is a marketing term. It’s you know likelihood of a brand standing

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out in consumer’s mind or in a cluttered market.

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>> Um

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>> yeah,

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>> so this is what I’m saying though. There’s like a salience ambiguity

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ambiguity to it. like it’s using a pri proprietary system that just weights

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based on events salient. So it’s it’s trying to weight an event based on what

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it thinks. But they don’t publicly elaborate on exactly how this is formula

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is calculated. I think

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>> I believe it

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>> and I and I understand why they might not want to do this, but I think they

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should release all of this. Like Elon Musk got ripped to shreds saying that

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Twitter was leaning Democrat. you know, the the the algorithm was silencing

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Republican voices, all of that. Whether it was true or not, it became like the

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whole like stickick about why he bought Twitter and everything. I think if Koshi

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wants to look completely like just that this is an un like

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unbiased thing, they need to do some more public elaboration on exactly how

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this formula is calculated because

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>> I I do want to see that cuz I do think that there might be flawed or hidden

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waiting like the index gives similar weights to various political markets

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despite wild differences in like these these trading markets. And then in

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addition to that um like it can cause opinions of like a few traders on low

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volume markets like shutdowns and stuff to disproportionately outweigh high

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volume markets control of the house, you know, cuz they’re they’re using their

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their market data to then essentially do that. So what I’m saying is some of

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these low value low volume markets can outweigh a high volume market possibly.

24:49

Yeah, I mean it makes sense. Like I think they should have definitely put

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out there it’s like people who I don’t know maybe

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this might be a little bit of a far stretch but it’s like when Apple made

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the M1 they kind of told you how it was made like we put the system in chip with

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like the GPU CPU everything in there you know anyone who knows about that can

25:15

also replicate it you know like building chips is

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>> you know something anyone could do if they wanted to like

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>> well

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>> maybe this is

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>> I I think that’s a flawed example because the reason

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>> I figured

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>> Apple can do the chips so well is they controlled the whole stack you know and

25:33

in many ways coffee she does share the whole stack but let me let me show you

25:37

real quick like what I mean here so this is a really good um article about it

25:42

similar weights wally different volumes presidential race here kapow weights 18%

25:50

% but look at the trading volume like you know half a million dollars but

25:55

control of house 13 million volume this is outweing that

26:02

this you know and then that has the same weight as this you know

26:07

>> and then shutdown this year has the same weight

26:11

as as this if not more weight than that shouldn’t

26:16

shouldn’t be the way like what I’m saying is there could be a flaw odd

26:20

index to this.

26:22

>> No, I see what you’re saying. Like the inflow is a little bit contradicting,

26:26

especially with the control of the house and the house seats.

26:29

>> Yeah, cuz then you could go essentially control the market by putting half a

26:33

million dollars on the presidential race one way and possibly swing the whole the

26:38

whole KayPal index very quickly with looking at trading volume out here.

26:46

I mean, I guess it’s kind of like a ETF ETF or is it like an index? Kind of like

26:52

the Coinbase index where it has like the top 50 tokens by market cap. If suddenly

26:58

one of the tokens like let’s say if because

27:01

>> it’s like the S&P 500 100%. You know, Nvidia makes up the the thing. So when

27:06

Nvidia dips, the whole [ __ ] index dips, but this is exactly it. However,

27:12

>> yep. Nobody, you know, nobody anymore really

27:15

believes that the S&P 500 is a representation of the the economy. Like

27:20

to some traders it is, but but it is not a representation of the actual economy.

27:25

And my point here is that all of this could become a very big part. in here.

27:31

Look, the weight’s based on salience. Like I had to I had to go Google it

27:36

because I was like I know salience, you know, more or less means being, you

27:40

know, quality of prominence or something, but I was like I’ve never,

27:44

you know, known the full term. But this is my concern is you could come in here,

27:49

>> put a million dollars one way and swing this market pretty heavily because this

27:54

weight is here. I think they need to weight it off a trading volume too and

27:58

have some sort of like mathematical formula to to factor in all of that. So

28:03

that control of house should probably have way more, you know, weight here. It

28:08

should probably be 30%, maybe 40%. You know,

28:12

>> yeah, like it’s not as stable. I think the things that are the least stable in

28:17

this index were the presidential one and I forgot the other one that

28:21

>> the shutdown this year. It just it didn’t have enough volume. You could you

28:24

could swing the volume like these if you if you could put $5 million on a

28:29

presidential race in one way. You could in theory, you know, swing the market,

28:35

cash out early and, you know, still make up your money on a on by losing some

28:40

money on a presidential race because there’s just not enough volume yet.

28:43

>> Okay. Yeah. So, so I think you’ve mentioned that you you you

28:49

broke that down pretty good because like this is very high level stuff and

28:55

most people are reading this are going to be like oh that’s cool I can now like

28:58

trade on on politics more with like this index which is amazing like I like it a

29:03

lot I think it’s a very cool thing it’s very innovative thing you’ve never seen

29:07

this before um

29:09

>> maybe it needs a little bit more adjustments I think

29:12

>> I just think I mean these guys are and to some degree

29:16

they’re the experts right like you become the expert if by you building a

29:20

product whatever it is you become an expert at it if you’re convicted enough

29:24

and I think these people are by any means by all means they’re they’re

29:29

they’re the professionals but I wonder

29:34

I wonder what influenced the formula like I mean it it kind of breaks it down

29:38

there but like the formula itself like you mentioned like there’s still a lot

29:41

of questions that need to be answered and I I think they should probably come

29:44

forward and maybe in Kawi research or one of their conferences be like hey

29:48

yeah so this is why we’re building it and why not

29:51

>> they have some of this out there

29:53

>> on here on cost K costy research so there is a fact sheet there is um you

29:58

know information and a white paper that you could get um but I believe you have

30:04

to email and request this stuff

30:07

>> okay

30:07

>> so like I I’ve emailed them earlier today for the fact sheet and then for

30:12

the white paper because I am actually kind of interested

30:16

on how they’re doing that. Um like and again it it’s about volume

30:22

here. Like this is not a very high volume thing. And I I really do think

30:26

somebody could come in here and influence this pretty heavily to

30:31

Democrat

30:33

>> with with maybe a million to $3 million maybe, you know.

30:42

Yeah, honestly, um, this could easily influence elections as we know it. Like

30:48

we were talking about it earlier, gerrymandering is already a pretty big

30:51

deal, but like, well, I mean, there’s a lot of things, not just gerrymandering,

30:55

but that’s the first thing that came to mind. But, you know, there’s a lot of

30:58

big things, especially with prediction markets. I think that was probably the

31:02

most talked about thing during the 2024 elections for the president. I think

31:08

this is going to be the new relevance with it. And I mean I mean it’s a

31:13

[ __ ] mess when when you’re when you’re talking about elections, but like

31:18

>> this is going to be um it’s going to be an interesting election later this year

31:21

for the for the for the what are they called again? The my mind is blanking.

31:27

Um the elections happening in between like the

31:34

two-year elections. What are they called again? Um,

31:38

God, I’m a dumb

31:39

>> midterms.

31:42

>> Yeah, there you go. The midterms.

31:43

>> Okay.

31:45

>> Yeah, we’ll we’ll see what happens with the midterms. I’m actually looking

31:48

forward to it. I’m I’m I’m betting and I’m hedging and I’m doing everything as

31:53

far as all that goes.

31:56

>> Um, which is all fun,

31:58

>> but something that is not fun that I kind of want to talk about in the end

32:01

here is the Nathan Fuller scam with Privy. Uh, I think it’s Privy. So,

32:09

>> I think is it Privy or Privy? We’re probably neither of us are

32:14

pronouncing it right, but I thought it was Privy.

32:19

>> Okay, I’m going to say Privy. It sounds better because it has two V’s.

32:22

>> Um, so the TLDDR is this guy, the name is Nathan Fuller. I could never find a

32:27

picture anywhere. I don’t know if you can find it, but he lived in Texas in

32:31

Cypress and he was operating with his Wyoming entity that was made in 2023.

32:37

Um, the timeline goes from October 2022 to

32:42

mid 2020 22 to 24. He raised $12.3 million from 150 investors. Um the pitch

32:51

was mostly centered around investors signed joint venture agreements

32:55

promising proprietary AI based trading bots for high frequency arbitrage across

33:02

platforms which is kind of interesting when I read AI based trading bots. I was

33:07

like is he doing like like three comma strippy or some formula based trading

33:13

bot or was it like aic but based on the timeline it’s very much

33:17

>> uh what I first said. So, the claim guaranteed returns 100 plus% in as

33:24

little as 21 days or 40 to 50% routinely, which I’m like, dude,

33:31

if anyone tells you guaranteed returns, huge red flag. Like,

33:36

>> I don’t know. Like, maybe people are not those people weren’t the brightest and

33:41

unfortunately they pay the price. Um, but the SEC roll,

33:45

>> you get the greed thing, you know, like every time you hear that the greed gets

33:50

to you and you get in a precar precarious situation and then you nobody

33:57

taught them those those things. Like there’s always new prey to kind of prey

34:01

upon. Like I do think it’s a little bit more of

34:05

ignorance than stupidity, but it’s it’s just unfortunate.

34:09

>> Yep. So, I asked Grock all this what I’m what I’m telling you. Um, the SEC

34:15

charges are actually like relevant, like more recent. It violates the Securities

34:21

Act with all these [ __ ] sections. It seeks injunction, disgment,

34:27

and penalties. Discorgment. Is that how you pronounce it? I’m I’m ESL, so that’s

34:32

my

34:32

>> Oh, man. Disgint. I’ve never seen that. I don’t even know what that word is.

34:38

>> All right, we’re going to find out. Yeah, let’s Google that one real quick

34:41

because I’m not sure.

34:43

>> We’re we’re learning words today, you know. Uh I already forgot the last one.

34:49

Um this Gorgman is illegal.

34:51

>> Yes, salience. Thank you. Um tells you I didn’t really learn much from it. Um

34:56

this Gorgman is a legal remedy where a wrongdoer is forced to give up profits

35:01

obtained through illegal or unethical acts. Okay, so totally valid. I’m glad

35:06

they’re doing that. It makes sense. Oh, going back to

35:09

>> it’s kind of like reparations to some

35:12

>> Yeah, exactly.

35:14

>> I guess it’s a fancier way of saying reparations because that’s

35:17

Yeah.

35:19

>> Yeah. Exactly. So, why this scam worked? Red flags to highlight according to

35:24

Grock. AI hype exploitation. It promised blackbox tech that sounded futuristic

35:30

and low risk. I mean, I believe it. Um, guaranteed returns is always a massive

35:34

red flag, but yet these people still gave me money. So, I’m like, I don’t

35:37

know, dude. I mean, Darwinism is still a thing if you’re falling for this scam.

35:41

I’m sorry. I don’t know what to tell you. Fake credentials, bogus insurance,

35:45

FDIC claims. Okay, so I guess that’s probably fair cuz Well, no. I mean,

35:49

that’s not true. I mean, sorry. I’m just thinking I’m My ADHD is [ __ ] on the

35:55

roof right now. Um, I have a bad habit of talking as I’m thinking, so you’ll

36:00

get my gibberish. I mean, let me ask you, Leon, you’ve talked you you and I

36:06

met at at Geekdom, you know, we were talking about startups, and you’ve

36:09

probably seen more startups than I ever have before. Um, how does one,

36:16

if you’re raising money, how does one get away with

36:22

guaranteeing returns and they back it up with whatever [ __ ] Like, do you

36:27

think they’re just really good at sales at that point? like how did this person

36:31

get away with it is when trying to get

36:36

>> Does that make sense?

36:37

>> I Yeah, I I run into this a lot where the person is so charismatic. Um there’s

36:43

a there’s actually a word for it. Um charismatic and

36:50

manipulative. It’s like a man, what is the word? I I’ll I’ll find

36:56

it.

36:58

>> Okay. uh Mavelian

37:05

uh it’s Mavelian um a person that is like that they’re

37:11

they’re just charismatic and manipulative like their whole

37:16

personality is about doing that they’re slick they’re you know so sociopathic

37:21

they’re narcissistic they’re calculating all all those things and I think you

37:26

have to be that to be a founder in some ways. However, these people are often

37:32

like overtly um maybe even covertly like you know

37:37

tricking people into it. like they might not be explicitly saying that there’s

37:41

going to be returns like you know oh I’m going to get you a

37:45

th000% but they’re more or less like hey your money’s safe like you know there’s

37:50

nothing to worry about like you’re going to get returns like look at this in the

37:52

past you know like doing all of it but often times something that’s too good to

38:00

be true is often too good to be true like if if somebody’s telling you give

38:03

me $1,000 and I’ll get you two grand you’re either in a Ponzi scheme

38:07

somebody’s something’s happening like somebody’s going to get screwed and it’s

38:12

a matter of when are you going to get screwed and I think most people don’t

38:16

run into that enough man scams are constant and there’s

38:21

there’s an inflow of new people every single day you know

38:27

>> yeah I mean people it’s just great at that point um we were talking earlier

38:31

about psychology a lot and I could have about the psychology of money which is a

38:35

book that I’ve read and I believe you’ve also read it Um, money just kind of

38:39

brings out the worst and very few times the best in us. Um, it only amplifies

38:46

what already exists is kind of like my take away from that book. Like, you

38:50

know, if you’re already a certain type of person, you add more money into that,

38:55

you’re going to fuel up that certain type of person. So, it’s all very

39:00

interesting stuff, I suppose. Um but going back to this broader context

39:04

according to Grog AI crypto trading scams in 2026 they pretty much exploded

39:10

analysis and other noted AI enabled operations extract 4.5x more money on

39:15

average whether they’re deep fakes fake signal groups fabricated dashboards and

39:20

autonomous agents are common. Okay, so that makes sense. Like this is what I

39:24

wanted to talk about like as a segue like everyone is now doing agents and I

39:31

mean I mean this is the this is the thing

39:34

with with been being in fintech. One thing I’ve noticed is building in this

39:38

space long enough, like even with the whole degeneracy that there was with

39:43

meme coins, um like you’re never going to find returns.

39:48

Like if anyone is ever telling you, yeah, you have promised returns on your

39:52

investments. I’ll be very careful. Um, the best thing I can look into that that

39:58

is actually legitimate would be like UBS or Fidelity or maybe you’re talking to

40:03

some, you know, quant firm. They’re the ones who have enough expertise, enough

40:08

data to be able to tell you where your investments are going to project are.

40:13

>> They’re still they’re all still gamles and they’re all still estimates. Like

40:17

you it’s just like Nvidia like Nvidia is kind of um a guaranteed success in many

40:22

ways. However, man, you know, somebody could not make their payment. Like, you

40:29

know, the United States could go to war with Taiwan and, you know, China and

40:32

they could it could just there’s always a risk.

40:36

>> Yeah. There’s always going to be a risk. You just never know where things are

40:38

going to go. And if anybody says they can do do it like a quant a quant should

40:44

be a highly highly intelligent person, the more intelligent a person is

40:49

generally the more hedging language they use. So you should hear them say, “Hey,

40:55

if everything goes to plan uh based on current market conditions, this is the

40:59

the path that you know the numbers are heading, you know, based on um you know,

41:05

us not heading to war. This is where the market should head based on you know the

41:10

quarterly earnings hitting this, you know, if everything goes well.” like

41:16

anybody that’s intelligent going to use hedging language more than just saying,

41:20

“Yeah, this is definitively what happens.”

41:23

>> Yeah. I think a good way to spot someone who’s legitimately trying to help you

41:28

financially, they’re still going to tell you like, “Listen, there’s still a

41:32

risk.” Whereas someone who wants to just take your money, run with it, they’re

41:37

going to tell you everything you want to hear. Like, yeah, dude, if you give me

41:40

$1,000, I’m gonna double it. No sweat. probably gonna sound a lot more

41:45

elaborate than I am, but you know, my point is is they’re never going to tell

41:49

you like the risks even if you ask the risks. And I mean, I ran into one person

41:53

one time. I thankfully I was smart enough not to give up my money. But I

41:59

mean, I’ve been approached by MLMs as well. So, I think the pattern that I’ve

42:03

seen is they’re always going to try to sell you the upside or just the good

42:08

outcome. And when you ask them on what would happen if it doesn’t go that way,

42:14

either depending on the person if they’re good at sales or good at talking

42:17

to you, they might they might just say some [ __ ] that will make you think, “Oh,

42:23

well, I guess it’s fine either way.” Like, no sweat. Whereas, maybe you’re

42:27

talking to a person who doesn’t know better, like an MLM. You know, a lot of

42:31

them are amateurs, I suppose, but they’ll they’ll they’ll just stumble on

42:35

their awards, which, you know, case closed. So, I think it’s very

42:40

interesting. Um, I mean, it’s just another day here in here in crypto, I

42:44

suppose, or at least back then when it took place. Um, but yeah, just be

42:49

careful where you put your money, man. Like, there’s a lot of good places to

42:52

put it. I think the best way to tell if it’s a good place is if it tells you,

42:57

you know, no, you’re not going to, you’re not

43:01

guaranteed to make a profit. It’s all about timing. It’s all about you knowing

43:04

what you’re doing. um legal term for it and financial term

43:09

there’s definitely always luck involved but you can always make your own luck

43:12

too definitely um I guess the last thing as part of this topic you mentioned with

43:18

me you shared with me earlier this week that Robin Hood released agents and base

43:24

you know I saw on their Twitter blow up as far as them enabling aic MCP

43:30

connectivity to trade on their app or just on their ecosystem.

43:39

>> So, let’s Robin Hood agents uh trading agents. Let me share my screen.

43:46

>> So, this I’m actually pretty excited about because I want my money to

43:50

automate and move while I am sleeping. Hopefully, not on the downside or me

43:55

losing my money. Um, so this came out a few days ago. Your strategy shouldn’t

43:59

sleep just because you do. And this is my whole selling point or my whole

44:03

belief as well. will connect your AI agent to Robin Hood agentic account to

44:07

explore trade ideas, build and rebalance portfolios, program custom tools, and

44:12

place trades as you strategy. I’m sorry, as your strategy evolves. So, first I’ve

44:19

seen this uh page. So, it’s the first time I’ve seen this

44:24

page. It’s in beta. Uh market access for AI agents available

44:29

now through Robin Hood’s MCP server. So, I’m pretty technical. Like, I

44:35

understand why we need an MCP server, but if it’s so bad, like, like, you and

44:40

I have talked about how bad it is, Leon. Like, why are people still [ __ ]

44:43

building MCPs? That’s the one thing I don’t fully understand.

44:47

>> I think it’s something about token usage or something. Like,

44:51

there’s a reason to it, actually. Like

44:57

>> yeah, I mean the setup for an MCP server is [ __ ] horrible, which I mean it’s

45:01

not any different than most apps I suppose, but or tech, but

45:07

um

45:07

>> yeah. So

45:08

>> go too deep into a rabbit hole.

45:10

>> Yeah. So like um it’s a little bit about tokens but it’s

45:15

also um like universal translator like every API doesn’t you know like APIs

45:22

don’t always describe like what endpoints are there you know you have to

45:25

kind of go and figure them out um and then also MCPs provide a sandbox like

45:31

secure environment for for them um execute code without exposing root

45:36

credentials or breaking compliance and all that. So I think that they’re still

45:40

there, but it there there does require a lot of like technical parts to it to

45:45

ensure you know you can do it and you’re still using an API in the end. It’s just

45:50

setting it up is is hard and you know managing the enterprise security and

45:55

governance is still a little complicated.

45:59

>> Okay. Um

46:03

I don’t like robo advisors. I feel like if you’re just going to give an LLM kind

46:07

of like the market feed and sell that product, I’m like

46:11

I can just do that on ChadvT unless there’s like proprietary data that I

46:15

don’t have access to. Like imagine if the Bloomberg terminal had like its own

46:19

LLM and it tells you everything from whatever you can find manually on the

46:25

Bloomberg terminal, but instead you can access it almost immediately with an

46:29

LLM. Like I think that’d be pretty cool. But um

46:34

>> they just go headless. I think more than than anything all these things are

46:38

turning turning these apps into headless things. Like I think more than anything

46:44

instead of like the new way to interact with anything is going to be a headless

46:49

environment. You’re going to type into a chat thing. It’s going to execute your,

46:53

you know, trades, do all of that. I’m a little less interested in like the AI

46:59

component of it. Like the rebalancing’s cool and all of that, but I I think the

47:03

ability to say, “Hey, uh, I want to buy 15 shares of Tesla and, you know, tell

47:09

it, hey, you know, versus a, you know, before you have to go say, hey, what’s

47:14

the low price? What’s the high price? You willing to do, what’s the slippage?”

47:17

All that you can you can just tell it and then it can kind of give you some

47:20

information, provide it to you, give you an analysis, and then you can say,

47:24

“Okay, great. put an open call out for, you know, Tesla at 5% below market, you

47:31

know, buy it when it can and if it if it drops below, you know, that 5% at 10%

47:36

buy more. You know, like it it’s going to give you the ability to natural

47:40

language communicate versus in the past you had to go do that and it was a

47:44

little complicated. And you know, the reason why Charles Swab is such a good

47:49

trading place is because the [ __ ] interface sucked. Like, you know,

47:54

Fideli’s interface sucks. Like, Robin Hood is such a good interface. I just

47:58

think the next interface is chat. Like, if you can just tell it buy 15 shares of

48:03

Tesla, but buy it at less than 10% on the market and keep that open until June

48:10

31st, like that’s a that’s a great like thing and it just goes and does it

48:15

versus you having to go put all that data into like some weird ass interface.

48:21

>> Yeah. because people don’t want to download apps anymore. Like that’s

48:25

always been the case for a while. Like you say, hey, I I created this app. You

48:30

know, people are like, “Oh, another app.” You know, depending on whatever it

48:34

is. But, um, Headless is very much the new meta. I wonder how long it’ll stick.

48:39

I wonder if it’ll actually last. I think the next best example that I’ve seen is

48:45

Banker. They still have their headless function of it. I mean, when it was

48:49

working because right now it’s still not working. like you cannot make trades. Um

48:53

I mean I think you can with Twitter but I don’t understand. Um they I haven’t

48:57

followed up with them. Anyways um what’s cool is they have their headless like

49:01

you can do their trades on Twitter but you can also do it on on like Telegram

49:06

and then you can go to their app and you can have a lot more functionality there.

49:10

Like I think that’s the approach I’m taking for Mintlock and I think that’s

49:14

the approach a lot of people are taking as well because

49:17

um the accessibility distribution side of it is just very powerful. Everyone’s

49:22

already on chatting interfaces like we talk a lot every day to people that we

49:27

care about. It makes sense you know like building on

49:30

a chatting interface I think is going to be a new meta. I wonder how long it’ll

49:34

last though. I I think it’s going to be the new meta

49:38

more and more. Like Rivian vehicles now have a an AI in it and it’s got an MCP

49:44

that’s running to the car. So like MCPs, Rivian, you know, everybody’s doing

49:50

>> more and more of this stuff. And I think computing is going to change to be

49:54

you’re still going to have websites, you’re still going to have apps, you’re

49:56

still going to have that stuff, but there’s going to be

50:00

an easier ability just to tell the computer, hey, organize all these trades

50:05

or, you know, every single month on the 14th and the 3rd, deposit $100 and then

50:11

buy this this stock. Like that that normally would have required you to go

50:17

set up a recurring deposit and then you would have to go set up a recurring buy

50:20

for that. and then you have to set up another recurring buy, you know, like

50:24

all of that’s quite complicated. Maybe took you 15, 20 minutes. You can just

50:28

type it in and it does it for you in like five minutes. Like it’s going to

50:32

make things easier. It’s just like Salesforce going headless. Like you

50:35

don’t need to go and update all these fields. You can just tell it, hey,

50:39

here’s my meeting notes. Here’s the information on the client. Um, you know,

50:43

move it from a a sales stage to an opportunity. Make a deal. I’m going to

50:49

sell them $15,000 worth of software and it does it in five minutes versus

50:53

something that would have taken you administratively probably 30 minutes to

50:56

an hour to go enter all those fields. So, I think that’s the way for complex

51:01

tasks to to to go, but you’re still going to have those interfaces and and I

51:06

think that’s the cool part like the rebalancing. You know, if you have Tesla

51:09

and Nvidia, maybe you only want to keep so much Nvidia shares because you’re

51:13

hedging against, you know, risk. like rebalancing that. I I’m just more

51:19

concerned about the AI being like the one that’s making the decisions and

51:24

going and buying a ton of GameStop shares and you tell it, you know, to AI

51:29

buy that like at some point you’re going to get burned because the somebody’s

51:32

going to outsmart the AI. Like human ingenuity always can outsmart an AI in

51:38

some capacity.

51:40

>> Can you imag Yeah. No, I agree. Um, AI still cannot think like we can. I don’t

51:45

think if it’ll ever get there. I don’t think Terminator is going to happen type

51:49

future. But, um, you mentioned that AI can be fooled by a person still. Um, how

51:58

do you think this could influence with the

52:02

we were talking about Kapow earlier. I think insider trading there could

52:07

influence it pretty pretty significantly.

52:11

if we if there were to be an agent to be trading on similar instruments,

52:16

how far do you think um the damage could be?

52:21

>> I I think we’re barreling towards a great depression sort of problem at some

52:26

point. Like I don’t think traditional recessions and traditional depressions

52:30

are going to happen because of how GDP um is less than the interest payment now

52:37

on the US debt. Like I think it’s a hard mathematical equation for that. But I

52:42

think at some point these AIs and all these tools could possibly

52:47

just accident crash crash stocks, crash shares. Like for example, if everybody’s

52:53

betting on Microsoft and everybody’s using similar models and all of a sudden

52:57

micro Microsoft reports bad earnings but their their future, you know, their

53:03

future look, you know, on all the description looks really good. You could

53:08

see all these robots just buying up Microsoft and shooting it up to values

53:12

that it shouldn’t be at when you know they’re then same thing on the opposite.

53:19

>> Bless you.

53:20

>> Thank you. I I just think there’s a lot of risk on that side at some point. Like

53:24

I don’t fully understand it, but I I see that there could be problems in the

53:28

future.

53:29

>> Yeah. I mean, I guess we’ll find out, but I’m just thinking ahead. I’m like,

53:35

yeah, we’re probably not at a good point for letting an AI do all the trading. I

53:39

don’t know how autopilot is doing it. They have the claw only

53:44

agent handling all their trades. They put a 50 They put 50,000 on it. They’re

53:49

pretty much up at this point. Um, but it’s still a person handling it.

53:56

like it’s not the AI doing everything on its own, but just having the person kind

54:01

of be the middleman between the AI executing on the traits. Um, I wonder

54:05

how that’ll go. I think AI trading is going to be a pretty big deal. Maybe the

54:11

next big thing is going to be someone who enables aic trading tools. I I think

54:18

at some point we’re barreling towards like I don’t know if you read sci-fi or

54:23

watch sci-fi the foundation on Apple TV how they have a society that’s highly

54:28

advanced but they ban AI they ban robots you know because there was an uprising

54:34

out there like I could see at some point AI becoming

54:39

like we love AI but if you go out to any of those commencement speeches you go

54:44

out to anyone in the real world AI is a no. It’s a devil. It’s bad. It’s there.

54:49

I think a majority of people that I know that are not in tech are like, “No, I’m

54:54

not going to use AI. No, like that’s it’s a bad I don’t want to use it. Like

54:58

I don’t want data centers. I don’t want this.” Like I I can see a point where

55:06

some people get stuck in a an economy that is just different from where we are

55:11

at. But also, I could see that there could be at some point

55:16

laws and regulations against using AI with trading and all this stuff at some

55:21

point if there’s some sort of crash like this is the wild wild west of it and I

55:27

think we should take advantage of it and we should use it but I’m fascinated to

55:30

see where this stuff happens cuz yeah claw portfolio is up 14.6%.

55:36

um $18 million currently invested. That’s a small hedge fund. But if you

55:41

have $200 million moving all together with AI, you could very quickly [ __ ] the

55:48

market if everybody dumped $200 million of of it. It they become one whole well

55:55

moving together. Imagine, you know, somebody, you know, like Micro Strategy

56:00

and then all these people following Micro Strategy. If there was billions of

56:04

dollars following Micro Strategy very quickly, Micro Strategy sells and

56:08

somebody else sells, that’s that’s that’s a huge market shock.

56:13

Honestly, I think everyone in the entire like all the AI leaders who sold the

56:20

idea that AI is going to take your job, they’re [ __ ] idiots. They should have

56:24

never done that. That is the worst PR you could ever have done. you should

56:28

blame yourself in fact for all this negative PR and negative view that a lot

56:32

of people our age and beyond that have with AI. Like I think that was the

56:37

biggest [ __ ] ever. And I’m actually mad at it because I’m like that’s not

56:40

what AI is supposed to do. Like if you ask me AI is supposed to automate the

56:44

boring [ __ ] I am waiting for the day where I can have an AI or robot,

56:49

whatever it is, do my dishes, do my laundry. Those are tedious tasks I do

56:54

every day that I do not give a [ __ ] about. I only do it because I have to.

56:58

Um, that is my whole thing with AI. And you know what? If it still replaces a

57:03

maid, I mean, so be it. It does a greater good. It helps people do boring

57:08

chores a lot more. But you shouldn’t sell it by saying, “Yeah, this is going

57:14

to replace people. Unemployment is going to reach 10% and above.” Like, no, dude.

57:18

Nobody wants to hear that. It it’s it’s just like there’s um there’s now data

57:23

showing that tech hiring is increasing, but it’s not from just tech companies.

57:27

It’s from all sorts of companies that now need technology people. It’s just

57:31

like uh IT providers became a big thing because every single office has, you

57:37

know, uh wires to to deliver the Ethernet, every computer, you know, is

57:42

connected to a network. There’s security, you know, now you need IT

57:45

companies. I think the same way that there’s going to be more agencies doing

57:50

you know dev work. There’s going to be more people doing this development. It’s

57:54

going to look totally vastly different than what you know you were doing even 5

57:58

years ago but it is still going to be a white collarish job. might not be paid

58:02

as as highly just because it’s going to be um lower barrier to entry, you know,

58:08

but um

58:09

>> for sure

58:10

>> I I do think that all of them sold everybody a thing like I think Sam

58:15

Alman, all these people believe AGI is going to solve this stuff and I don’t I

58:20

don’t think it’s going to happen.

58:22

>> Nope, I agree. Um

58:25

>> I don’t know. I have very political strong opinions. Happy to talk more

58:29

about it maybe next episode depending what the market is at. But yeah, I mean

58:35

I think this is pretty much everything for the for today’s episode. Um, let us

58:39

know what you think. Subscribe to the channel if you already haven’t. We’re

58:42

going to come find you. Make sure you subscribe. If not, let us know why you

58:46

wouldn’t subscribe, dislike it, whatever. We have the dislike button. Or

58:50

is it still the move? Okay. Dislike it if you dislike it. Like it if you liked

58:53

it.

58:54

>> All right. But yeah, thanks for watching.

58:56

>> All right. Bye.