Episode 5: Exploring Sustainable Burials at Sea with Spirit Oceano’s Dax

00:06

Welcome back to another episode of Beyond Giving, the best nonprofit podcast on the Boost network. I’m Zac.  And today we have a really cool conversation with  Dax from Spirit Oceano.  Thanks so much for joining the show, Dax. Thanks so much for having me. I’m super excited to be here. I’ve been enjoying what y’all are doing. Yeah. We, know, one of the coolest things about doing this show is the different types of organizations we get to talk to and interact with. And I got to say Spirit Oceano is

00:34

Definitely one of the more unique ones  that I hadn’t come across yet. But first, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and then we’ll talk about how you kind of got involved or by getting involved, I guess, started  your foundation? Yeah.  I guess  it’ll all kind of lead back to marketing.  I’m a career long marketer, but I’m also,  you know, always been an environmentalist,  somebody who loves the outdoors and has always had a big respect for it from

01:03

my childhood and on, but long story short, I have a marketing agency. know, I’ve  had a client,  uh, worked in energy out of Houston, but you know, kind of had this aha moment,  uh, when he was watching a documentary. Uh, it was old BBC documentary where,  uh, it’s about the ocean. Uh, a whale dies  in its  body, sinks to the barren part of the ocean and

01:30

ends up creating a ecosystem underwater that would have been a desert. And so he has like, this idea was like, well, couldn’t we do that, you know, with our own bodies and, you know, kind of give our own body back to the ocean, you know, kind of full circle life. That’s interesting. So what do you mean, like it creates this ecosystem? What are the kind of details about that? Because that’s one, even when I was kind of researching for this episode learning kind of about what you

01:59

I saw the environmental impact and all this really cool stuff that comes out of it. But I also was still just thinking the body goes, disappears in the ocean, and then that’s it. What actually happens there? Yeah, great question.  It’s all regulated here in the US. It’s regulated under the EPA Marine Protection Sanctuaries Act.  And so  in short, the EPA regulates burial at sea here in the United States.  And  burial at sea is, well…

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kind of what it says, is burial in the ocean.  And so it’s not rivers, it’s not lakes, it’s not, it’s physical, like, ocean burial. And so  it’s pretty much  three nautical miles offshore is the requirement. And then  instead of six feet under, it’s 600 feet under in most places.  Yeah,  that’s kind of burial of sea, but  they, you know, ask that you use biodegradable materials.

02:58

They have regulations  and  you have to be weighted, for example. To ensure you get to that 600 feet or whatever. Correct. Correct. And so you can actually go on the EPA’s website and look up the requirements. And then  within 30 days, it has to be reported  that the burial will see was performed,  the date and the coordinates as well. And so that’s all documented.

03:22

Why is that documented? there only a certain number of burials that can happen in an area in a particular time? Why do you have to report the coordinates and document that? Yeah. And I came from outside the end of life industry or just understanding it. But in short, once someone passes away, there’s a death certificate and paperwork and either they’re

03:51

For example, in the US, 60 % of everyone’s cremated. And so  that’s documented there. Or if they’re having a ground burial, it’s documented there. And then  same thing,  I guess the government requires that the body  is deposed of,  use  not the best choice of words, but  in  an accepted manner, in a legal manner.

04:18

It’s just part of the regulations and everything. for burials in general, not necessarily specific to seed burials. Yes. But it’s just that component. So it’s the documentation. And so we know. The last time it’s all EPA public information, the last record that’s available online, at least I checked within the last month, is from 2020. so not very recent.

04:44

It’d be really interesting to see the data today. But back then, think it was just over 2,000 something people were recorded having a burial at sea through the EPA. that doesn’t really, I think, account for cremation and the scattering of ashes at sea, which is also burial at sea. But it’s actually using cremation, which I don’t know if we…

05:13

should transition right now into it,  has the largest footprint of any form of burial today.  Interesting. Okay. And that’s just because of the energy used to actually do the cremation?  Multiple reasons.  The energy used in the emissions  that it creates,  the carbon footprint is over 400 pounds of carbon footprint with a single  cremation. And so that’s like driving your gas-powered vehicle from

05:42

I don’t know if that includes a motorcycle,  but your gas-powered vehicle from New York to Chicago. That’s insane. And if 60 % or over 60 % of the population are choosing this, that’s pretty damaging for our environment. It’s pretty damaging. And the other half is  ground burials, like traditional ground burials that, you know, metal caskets with all the linings and all the things to the balming fluids to…

06:08

all these things seeping into our ground waters and our ground systems and the concretes and the land use. And so with a ground burial in retrospect, so you have a cremation, 60 % of the people in the US choose that as about 400 plus carbon footprint. Then you have a traditional ground burial, bombing fluid, casket, all that stuff. That is about a 200 and I think…

06:34

like 20 or 250 pound carbon somewhere in between their carbon footprint for one. For one. Yeah. And then you get to this other category. that’s pretty much 50, that’s pretty much 96 % of like everyone in the U S are doing those two forms. Right. Then you have this other 4%, which is green barrels and which was actually popped up in recent years from like a 1 % to this 4%. So, and if you, like I’ve seen surveys and data

07:04

where everyone’s super interested in having a green burial and choosing a sustainable method. They’re just not acting on it. So when you get to a green burial in general, and that’s carbon footprint, you remember you got 600, 400 with pre-mation, 250 or whatever with ground burials, and then you got a green barrel in general, including an eco-friendly burial at sea, at 25 pounds.

07:28

25 in comparison. So 400, 250, and 25. So that’s interesting. I’ve always known the two ways to go and to be buried or whatever once you pass. And that’s ground burial or cremation. And I know some cremation, there’s water-based cremation or something that’s a little friendlier for the environment. But does that still carry a pretty heavy carbon footprint? Not as much, I’d imagine.

07:57

I need to look into it further, but I think  really with that is kind of the wastewater maybe it’s created, but  we want to encourage and empower all green burials. Like that is kind of one of our big things at Spirit Oceano.  There’s 23 states with oceanfront properties here in the U.S. you know, so it’s not always going to be the most sustainable if it’s maybe someone in the middle of the country, you know, that isn’t surrounded by  ocean. Then you get in.

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to regulations when you cross state lines and things like that. yeah,  mean, in transportation and all that. So,  you know, we want to empower just  whatever is better than what we’re doing today. that’s kind of what the mission of Spirit, the Spirit Oceano Foundation is, is kind of like, one, providing that awareness, helping people understand that there is another option, an alternative option that  maybe is still respectful and  dignifies your loved one, right? But also is better for the environment for the future.

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But so is it like awareness stuff or do you guys actually like facilitate these sea burials or like what do you guys do? Yeah, thank you.  Yeah, we’re focused on education and accessibility.  We want to educate people about this most underutilized  and eco-friendly like form of burial. So we want to like put that front and center and because really everyone does think like cremation is just kind of the most, the best,  you know, cause you know, whatever those reasons may be.

09:25

And so it’s like, ah, no,  listen. And so yeah, the education,  we kind of realized that that’s what  we’re kind of needing now is that,  get on the highest mountain,  jump on podcasts,  social media to, you name it,  and educate people and build awareness and help empower them to spread awareness. So that’s a big one. And then the accessibility. Right now,

09:52

You know, the top provider in the U S of a full body burial at C charges like a base of, you know, nine, $10,000 like minimum. And so it’s just like very not accessible to somebody, you know, that’s on the higher range. got cremation that can be anywhere from, you know, six, $900 to, you know, $2,500. Oh, interesting. So you’re always going to have to balance then that the, the economics of.

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the burial versus the benefit or damage to the environment and  kind of find a balance there, right? Well, it’s honestly, it’s just like there’s not enough providers and the ones that are,  I don’t  know why those costs are at that. And people aren’t really disrupting  what’s been in place for so long.  You’ve got the US Navy as the largest provider of burial sea in the US. Oh, I guess I actually did know  at least like

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somewhat about burials at sea, right? Because that’s how they happen in all the movies, like the military movies and stuff, right? When you die on a ship or whatever. Interesting. So I’m really focused on like numbers and data, right? And that’s what drives my entire life. And so I don’t want to dig into like the carbon footprint. And then I want to look at the costs roughly of a burial at sea, right? So you said it carries like a roughly 25 pound carbon footprint for a burial at sea. Yeah, mostly from the boat run.

11:18

From the boat ride. Okay, so it’s not even like a component of it’s just getting to that place for burial. Well, you know, when it’s done in an eco-friendly manner and we’re kind of trying to write that book and kind of set those standards. And so we are defining  basically kind of taking where the Navy has set the bar and pushing it forward a bit in a more sustainable way.  yeah, go ahead and your question. So like if,  if I want to, now that I know that barrel at sea is a thing and it’s better for the environment.

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Like how do I actually do that? Like what’s the process? How do I get like from here in San Antonio, right? The, the body to the launch site or  I started to say dump site, but that’s probably the wrong terminology for that. Like what is the actual process for figuring out how to do that? And with there being so few providers, like what does that market look like or what is that the accessibility  efforts that you guys are doing? What does that look like in the next 10 years or 20 years? Great question. And that’s where kind of the education component comes in and.

12:16

We even wrote an ebook  about  sustainable burial at sea and how to access it. It’s for free. Is that available on your website? Yeah, spiritociano.org and you can check it out. We’re already working on a second  iteration of it. yeah, mean, in short,  know, once, you know, there’s pre-planning and there’s post-planning.  You know, if you’re pre-planning, you know, for yourself or a loved one.

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You know, you can find a service provider,  know, you  know,  an ocean state that most likely provides, you know, some type of  burial sea. Most of the providers today provide  the scattering of ashes. And so they work with a crematorium that handles all that and then that takes it to the boat. But we’re kind of defeating the  environmental purpose. So let’s step back and talk about  full body sea burial.

13:14

And so that’s where it kind of gets a little challenging. In Texas,  a  company on the East Coast  operates out of 87 ports or 76 ports, and they have 80-something boats out of those ports. And so  whether they provide full body burial at sea at all of those locations, that’s kind of a question.  so I think, again, a majority of these providers today are doing the scattering of ashes at sea.

13:44

It gets back to you got to go online and dig a little deeper. Right. And find a provider that is providing, you know, full body sea burials. Now, if you’re a veteran or a veteran spouse, you actually have access to free burial at sea through the US Navy or Coast Guard. Yeah. so, but there’s complications there as well. Because, you know, you’re kind of bound by getting on a Navy ship.

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And those aircraft carriers where maybe you’ve seen in the movies or some of those,  you can see DOD footage  of  these burial at seas done by the Navy. And they look the same if you look at 1940 something to 2000 something, it looks exactly the same. And so anyways, they do the cremation and the scattering and the dropping of the ashes into the ocean, but then they do the burial at sea and they have kind of these,  they have different casket options,  but it’s…

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pretty standardized and they have the crew there and they put you over sea. And so you need to contact the Navy and there’s a whole department dedicated to that. so that’s how you would start navigating that. And you just, if you die at, you know, the day after the boat goes out and you have to wait for the next ship, you know, that could be months. And so you could be left, you know, with storing storage, you know, of the human remains.

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you know, that needs to happen somewhere nearby that, you know, until it’s ready to go and then you transport and those are kind of those costs that you’re going to be fit with even though you’re going to get the services for free from the Navy. Okay.  But then if you’re using like if you’re you’re buying the service from a provider, does that typically include like any type of storage or transportation or is that kind of like add-ons? Yeah, it’s all add-on, you know, it’s all kind of coordinating, you know, with

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A lot of them will use funeral directors.  so it’s coordinating with a funeral director and  usually a funeral home and  where they can maintain and  manage the  human remains. then,  and you’re getting that bill, and then  you’re moving to the burial seat provider  when they are available,  but again, for the full body services. And then…

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you get into from some of the providers I’ve seen, you you get you have to buy the shroud, you know, this custom shroud that’s designed to be weighted down, you know, keep everything that has specific holes in there and all that stuff. And so there’s material costs there that can be in the thousands of dollars. And I’ve seen on the websites and then, you know, the weights, you know, whether they’re using cannon balls, we want to recommend people using sand, you know, or something that’s going to, you know, just put it right back on the ocean floor. Right. So

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It’s a long-winded answer because  it’s hard because there’s not a lot of providers out there  and there’s not a lot of awareness and the providers that are out there are pushing for the cremation first. Why is that though? it like logistics? Why do they push for the cremation first? Yeah, infrastructure and logistics, I would say.  They  didn’t build on full body burial at sea first.

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And so, you know, and I guess that’s the  or the easiest, the easiest.  Cause like, like just thinking back, like, especially when we were first talking, right. Like you tell me,  we offer cremation services, right. I know exactly what that is. know that most of the people that I know that have died have been cremated and like, it’s a very like defined thing. And then you’re like, or you can do this, this body or this burial at sea. Right. And then I’m like, definitely intrigued, but there’s so many unknowns. And so I guess you kind of have to.

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be able to educate that customer in what that is and why that’s still a good thing versus cremation. like, yeah, do it and then spread your ashes. It’s a very known, very common thing. Yeah. I think  it’s not just the consumers, guess,  quote unquote, but  it’s the businesses.  It’s the industry.  And something about the burial industry in the US, as it was defined during the Civil Wars, what I’ve heard.

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And so, you know, they bombed Lincoln, right? And they sent him, you know, a couple of weeks away, you know, back home, you know, to be buried, I guess. And  they’ve been using the same stuff ever since. It’s like, where’s the innovation? You know, where’s the disruption? You know, and so  we’re really big  on  shaking things up, you know, and because this should be one of the most accessible forms. The material cost should not be expensive. It should be hemp.

18:31

It should be cotton. can be these biodegradable shrouds or materials that there’s so many out there and so many scientists and so many amazing people building innovative eco-friendly, sustainable things. So kind of just putting a little bit of thought into that. then having best practices, that is going to have the least impact on the environment is…

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is what we’re all about and the type of companies we want to see out there. We built an interactive map and we’re going to start putting sea burial providers, like full body sea burial providers on our website. we already have information about each state and how many burials at sea they had during this last report and other resources there in the state. we’re really building that because

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And it should be a quicker answer, but it’s state specific  and  it’s really like  not accessible today.  so is that starting to trend up? Like what are the numbers? How many burials it sees  typically happen? And do you see that trending up or is it holding steady or even declining? Yeah, I’d like to see more data and more recent data  because I’ve been sitting on the same 2020 data, you know, since before and I’ve

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been wanting to dive further deeper into historical data.  you know, I can tell you just that some of the biggest states today  are like states like  Washington and Oregon,  Florida,  Rhode Island.  Those are some of the big providers.  Texas,  not so much. And Texas is really unique because it has like a

20:20

pretty gradual shelf and slope to get to the depth that you would be ideal. But we could start repurposing fishing boats in their off season to start doing, because you don’t need to have a ceremony at sea. You can have a ceremony at sea at any time, but you don’t typically in the US go to the crematorium while they’re cremating your loved one. go to the crematorium to pick up the remains.

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You know, you can just have these coordinates, you know, you can, a burial at sea can be performed. I want to get it to, you know, as close to cremation costs, you know, as we can. And we want to start a fund to actually help pay for underprivileged families, burials at sea, you know? So  the accessibility thing doesn’t make sense to me.  And  that’s kind of the ones that we want to start empowering and set these guidelines or these standards for the industry. And then start empowering.

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like private companies to go, you know, fill the void. So there’s all these different things that you can do to really bring those costs down, make it more accessible.  And,  um, and you guys are kind of working in that area, right? You talked, you mentioned repurposing private vessels  or your  regular vessels to provide these services in their offices and stuff like that. That completely makes sense, right? Because

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Are there any additional licensing or regulatory requirements or anything for a boat to transport a body to a sea burial?  Or is it pretty much just as long as you’re seaworthy and you’re operating within the safety requirements, you’re able to do that transport? Yeah. Yeah. So that’s such an easy, low-hanging fruit way in to make that more accessible and really drive those costs down.

22:06

So I want to talk a little bit about what kind of happens to the body, not getting too morbid, right? But what kind of happens to the body after a sea burial? And then I’d like to learn a little bit more about this fund that you’re starting to help underprivileged families actually  pay for this. Yeah, so, you know, the deceased  was taken out, you know, three nautical miles out at least.  How far is like a nautical mile? What is three nautical miles? Yeah, that’s a good question.

22:35

I don’t know. But I looked it up and I just forgot. I don’t want to… But it’s far enough that nobody’s going to float back up to the shore, right? Yeah, but then you also have… One nautical mile is 1.15 miles. 1.15. Okay, cool. Okay, so it’s a little bit over three miles. It’s about three and half miles, give or take. And so…

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Yeah,  once, you know, Ocean, you know, the captain,  you know, the vessel  makes it out to there, you know, I think the weight has to  be like the accumulation of like, you know, 315 pounds or 300 something pounds. It’s on the UPS website of like the total weight.  And so, you know, you might be adding like 75 pounds,  the Navy, think they use like cannonballs or something like that. And again, we want to like sand would be so perfect to just to put right back or salt.

23:32

And it seems like you don’t even need a lot. Like if your total weight is three something, the average person is going to be like 150, 200 pounds, right? So you’re not even adding a ton. Yeah. And, you know, again, I need to check all the actual requirement numbers. yeah, and so you have the, you know, appropriate weight to, you you sink rapidly to the, you know, the bottom of the ocean. And there’s a few different, my friend, he’s a geoscientist.

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I love geology  and I love maps and  I love understanding  where are the best places  for  burial sea to take place. Where could the most resources be put to use? So,  being smart with the geography and where that’s happening, but  once the body of the remains are put overboard,

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They’ll sink to the bottom of the ocean and then from there  crustaceans,  whatever is kind of around. And then over time,  the salt water and everything I think also breaks down the body and the current and all the things. So  I spent some time at South by Southwest this year in Austin in March.  And one of my objectives was to meet as many biologists and scientists as I could.

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because I’m not  one  and because we also want to really dig deep into  the research  and the proving that this is  a sustainable route at scale. Do you know roughly how long it takes for that  breakdown? And like when you have a burial at sea, how often can you use a site? So say you’ve like, you know,

25:28

you get a new provider here in Texas, right? And you get like 5,000 burials. Like, do you have to spread those among different sites? like, does it just like, I mean, I don’t like, you don’t want a bunch of bodies just kind of piling up at the ocean, or does that matter? Like, what does that look like? Yeah, it’s pretty,  you know, maritime  law in regards to that.  no, I think that’s just kind of being built into the best practice.

25:53

I believe maybe like the Navy has kind of a specific  area where they  go and stop and  conduct burials at sea. So, you know, again, it’s kind of leaning to them and looking to them, you know, for some of those best practices. And  what are the whys? You know, is that just tradition or is there environmental impact, you know, or benefit?  And so that’s kind of, again, one of those things. And but, you know, as

26:22

All this said, under the EPA, it’s really just, hey, that’s your requirement. That’s far offshore, and that death requirement. that would, I guess right now, it would take quite a while before, if you just use the exact same burial site, it would take quite a while before you had too many bodies stacked up there. But as it becomes more more popular, and you start spreading that awareness, and that becomes like…

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you know, maybe in the future, the way to, um, um, to be buried. I just wonder if like we get, we get too high above that 600 foot mark, right? If there’s a busy site or whatever that. Yeah. guess to maybe put it simply as, you know, there’s 70 something percent ocean. True. You know, there’s only 30 something percent land or whatever the numbers are. Um, but you know, why are we so focused on, you know, just land when

27:20

You know,  again, like this is a way, and if it’s done in the right manner is the way we can like provide nutrients, you know, to the ocean. And  so I think that is one of my reasons  for going to South by this year. We had a session. It was called burial at sea, the next tide in  a green burial.  And it was all focused on  re-imagining a burial at sea in an eco-friendly manner  and at scale.

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And so again, you know, my whole purpose for being there is to put the right people in place to say, okay, when we hit, you know, right, we only did 2000, whatever in the year 2020. So, you know, in one year we haven’t hit your numbers quite yet. But you know, when we do hit that 5,000, we do hit that 10,000 or when it is a, met somebody who, you know, studies coral reef out of Florida and biologist, scientist, program director.

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awesome person. I was just like,  and they were like, Oh, well, you can put, you know, some of these, have a coral reef off the coast of Florida. Like we would love to like study, you know, the impact of, you know, human remains on, you know, on some of our reefs.  Like, and see if it, you know, sustains them or  decreases them. And so I was like, Oh my gosh, that’s so awesome. That makes sense, right?

28:48

But or does it? Because how deep do coral reefs grow? I don’t think they’d grow 600 feet down. I’m not sure. I think it actually probably stops because of the sunlight and things like that. And I’m like, OK, well, there even goes that whole idea outside the door. And that was mainly because that biologist didn’t know that that requirement was a 600 feet. And we could have probably, if I would have brought the

29:16

you know, the information. But I think that’s interesting though, even, even though like if you can’t put remains  at these coral reefs, right, starting those conversations and thinking outside  of what kind of traditionally fits in that industry. And I think that’s, that’s a really important part. And so that’s really cool. You’re doing that. Also something I thought of while you were talking, you know, I was worried about, you know, if this becomes a more popular burial, like, you know, too many bodies floating in the ocean. You made a really good point. There’s

29:43

We’re like 30 % land, right? 70 % ocean. We don’t bury people on top of each other on land and we haven’t run into that problem yet. So we do. Oh, do we? We actually do. Yeah. And using a lot of pressure resources and, you know, we already have housing issues and stuff like that. you know, and a lot of even the, you know, other green burial companies, you know, that are operating on land, you know, have to jump through so many hurdles. got the…

30:12

people turning you into a tree.  They mesh with fungi and with the roots  and  you compost and they use these fungi and that turn, meshes you with the roots and the tree and then you’re a tree. But  they have to pretty much set up a cemetery  and they want to call it a park because it’s just a bunch of trees instead of tombstones. But all the requirements are still, all the loopholes  are still going through.

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everything, all  the things that are instilled in the industry that maybe aren’t in our best interest. so like burials at sea, there’s a lot more space, right, than  burials at land. And it has all these benefits for the,  eventually the economics of a burial, right? But immediately for the environment, it’s more sustainable and you’re giving back the entire existence of this body back to

31:11

the ocean right back to the earth, which is  really cool. So you earlier you mentioned that you’re working on and you want to put a fund together to help families that can’t necessarily afford this, but want to take this route  for their  lost ones.  What does that look like? Were you kind of in the stages of that?  do  you know like  how that will work? Would it be like covering just the burial  portion or would it like the, we talked about the transportation and storage and like all of these things?  Yeah.

31:40

It’s an infancy.  We just got our  501c3 classification late last year. Oh, congratulations. Thank you.  We got to open a bank account, started a donation page, then spoke at South by in March and  just  so much has been happening.  We’ve been working on this for two, three years now.  But today,  yeah, we’re focused on  grant writing  and basically I want to empower, I want to put

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a new executive director in place. I want to put a new team in place. I want to like have team members that are dedicated to this 100%. And so I’m really kind of going after, you know, grants and things that can help us kind of take it to the next level. And one of the first things we want to do is like start this fund where we will pay for a hundred percent, you know, of a, you know, less privileged family, you know, um,

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you know, burial at sea, a sustainable, eco-friendly burial at sea. So, you know, we just want to start, you know, providing those and  we’re going to have to go to the big providers, right, that, you know, are charging a lot  and be like, hey, like,  like, here you go. Like, you know, we’re nonprofit. I want to show you that we’re here to actually, you know, increase this industry, right? Increase full body burial at sea. We want you to do it in this eco-friendly manner. Like, here are

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like people that want to have access to it or should have access to it, but can’t. And so then there’s like, how can we get those prices down so low just for the standard industry? But long story short, like they don’t have, like a lot of people don’t have that money.  And so we just want to take care of that. It’ll probably have to be state specific, but we’ll just have like  an application process right now. It exists as a Google doc  on our website, but just because,

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We want to start building the process. And so there’s a lot to be done.  One of the biggest, we want to have it done by the end of this year.  we want to get the funds together. Ideally it might happen, might not, but you know, the goal is to get the first one. You know, is to provide that for the first, you know, person.  That’s, that’s awesome. And so how can people  get involved and support the Spirit of Oceania Foundation?

34:07

Thank you. Yes. Well, we created the Spirit Oceano pledge. It’s just to pledge to choose a green burial for yourself or a loved one. You you have to make that decision. It’s on our website, spiritoceano.org. You get the free ebook about sustainable burial at sea. You know, we’re also, once we have like a green burial, a sea burial partner, blue burial partner, you know, we want to have like a

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like even provide significant discounts, like just for, you know, people who’ve pledged to do this. so long story short,  spiritoceano.org, you can donate at spiritoceano.org  slash donate,  and you can find us  online at spiritoceano on Facebook, on Instagram. We even have a burial at sea Facebook group that we’re starting  basically to start a space.

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for discussions  around this. And that community is where people can go to kind of learn more about it and  plan it for themselves or their family or… Our website has a lot of that information, that ebook, and then you can reach out to us.  You can reach out to contact at spiritoceano.org and  we’d be happy to talk. That’s awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us on Beyond Giving, Dax. This is a super insightful  conversation.

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It was really cool to learn kind of more about burials at sea. Like I didn’t know those really existed outside of movies, right? And so that was really cool. Yeah. So thanks for joining us.  And  for the audience, can visit spiritoceano.org to learn more about the foundation and to donate and contribute that way.  Thanks for joining us for another episode of Beyond Giving, the best nonprofit podcast on the Boost network, sponsored by nonprofits HQ. See you next time.